lo'wI' ja'chuq:MInDu'Donbe'

Notification that Qapla' has been added to the English Wiktionary
Hi, I am User:Doremítzwr from the English Wiktionary. I recently heard about your predicament and felt sorry for you. You may be interested to hear that I today added Qapla' to the English Wiktionary, which I believe is the first Klingon-derived word we have. We have a policy titled “Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion”, which requires that words entered into the English Wiktionary have three citations, coming from three durably-archived sources spanning at least one year. I have already twice cited Qapla', but I leave it to you to find the third. Our entry for Qapla' can be found here. Good luck! † Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 20:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Congratulations on the success of the addition of Qapla' into the English Wiktionary! Forsooth, there are very few occurrences of Klingon words to be found within mulitlingual projects these days. But this is likely due to the fact that the Klingon language hasn't quite "gone international"; that is, its "fame" is relatively small compared to that of, say, Esperanto. Also, the fact that (presumably) all printed material concerning the language is still under copyright can be a bit daunting to those who wish to incorporate as many languages as possible into a multilingual colaborative scheme. Nevertheless, it is possible to integrate vocables from Klingon (and other languages pending patent) without any infringement of copyright, hence the mere existence of this Wiktionary. You may already know this, but the Polish Wiktionary has a few Klingon entries, some of which are my own. One of the entries there I didn't add is loDHom, which they even present in its various inflections! So, I hope that knowledge of the Klingon language will continue to grow without difficulty, which should be the same for any language, constructed or natural. Cheers! —MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 02:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Considering the above warning: “Warning: this site will be closed in a few days, unless there’s some overwhelming reason not to”, it may be a good idea that you copy all your Klingon words hereïn to subpages of your user page on the English (or other, less threatened) Wiktionary. Thereön, you could argue for the recognition of Klingon as a language which meets our criteria for inclusion. As long as you make some contributions from time to time, I’m sure that your doing so would be fine. † Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 17:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Verily, I have considered this warning—and, indeed, still do quite habitually—and have already entertained the idea of repositing said contents to an extraneous promptuary of information storage. Nathless, I durstn't implement such a scheme, lest perchance I possibly prorogue potential progress per the present perfunctory prospectus. Nay, methinketh 'twould behoove all shall I proceed henceforth thru means and manners all but cogniscible to he who possesseth a fair field and no favour. But, Dude, thanks for your, like, appreciation and stuff. Uh huh-huh-huh! ;-) —MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 18:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

hello
Are you an administrator on this site? Or even a steward? (I'd write in tlhIngan, but I'm just a beginner). I've made a few spelling mistakes (like thlIngan and suv), which I can't delete. Jon 22:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Alas, I am not an administrator! If I were, there wouldn't be an ugly warning sign at the top of the page! The person responsible for that was Brion VIBBER, who, ironically, has nothing to say on this matter. As for me, I am basically the only person who is adamant about keeping this Wiki from being taken down. As you can see (via the history pages), I am pretty much the central force behind this particular Wiki, as concerns the creation and the editing of the articles. At any rate, thank you for your interest. (…not to mention your mistaking me for an administrator! :-) )—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 22:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've started adding entries. Since my tlhIngan Hol is still pretty poor, I'm concentrating on creating stubs with the Klingon-English and English-Klingon translations.
 * Other wiki projects elect their own admins; I tried emailing Brion, but I've had no response so far. The only way that they will take us seriously is by us building up the quantity and quality of articles, and attracting other editors to form a real online community.
 * I've ordered a TKD and I'm attempting to join the KLI. Do you know of any good learning resources? Jon 10:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. Stubs are okay, we can work around these. The point is: that the entries are created in the first place (and, of course, that they're not erroneous).
 * 2. To be honest, I don't really know who's "in charge" here. Maybe it's a Klingon! But, I, too, have tried contacting Brion and received no response. Perhaps he's an anti-Klingonist… Anyways, he is (I believe) only a systems programmer and would therefore be of no use trying to shut down a Wiki—after all, how do you "de-program" a Wiki?…
 * 3. I hope your order comes in soon! TKD is essentially the only legitimate document in print for the Klingon language. There is also an audio tape for sale, which I don't have yet but may get: it'd be nice to hear how the language is actually spoken! There is an online Klingon Academy, which you may have already been to, but other than that, I don't know of any other reputable Klingon resouces—apart from contacting Marc Okrand himself (which I would love to: if only I could…)!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 22:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

loHwI'pu'
I found the site on meta to request permissions. To make any progress we need a request page on this mu'ghom, in order to achieve consensus. I could improvise something in English, but it should really be in Klingon if you feel up to it. A simplified version of what they have on English Wiktionary should do. If you nominate yourself I will support you. The stewards (toy'wI'pu'??) may sit on any request for a while to see if there is any opposition.

If we can clear this hurdle, we should next aim for bureaucrat ( loHwI''a' ??) status - this would allow us to make any other lo'wI' into a loHwI'. Jon 09:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That sounds great! If many tera'nganpu' (Earthlings) are going to read the request, they'll probably want to do it in some language with which they're familiar, i.e., DIvI Hol (English). I don't mean to toot my own horn or count any chicken before they've hatched, but I just knew that this Wiki would be picking up attention sooner or later. Also, I'm glad you've been adding entries as well, and without a copy of TKD! Wow!—Or, has it come in already? Well, you should be receiving it soon, I hope: it really does provide the barebones of tlhIngan Hol. In all honesty, I don't know much about "red tape" (to use a broad term); what I mean by this is that I'm not very knowledgable about official procedures as laid out by officiating legislatures. You, on the other hand, seem to know enough to feel compelled that we should have a regulating system in the first place. Silly me, all I ever think about doing here is just adding and editing entries—but that's really me: I just do what I do, sometimes just headlong, but that hasn't been too much of a problem in the past. Anyways, I am excited that there are at least some people out there who consider this mughom an authentically (and legitimately) viable endeavour!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 20:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You're back, maj. My TKD came a few days ago. Adding entries is, of course, what it's all about. However there are bad guys out there. Being an administrator makes it easier to revert vandalism; allows vandals to be blocked and lets one delete pages. Anyway, I made  a bilingual template. I struggled a bit finding the right words for vote and the like. Let me know if there are any major Qagh'a'mey, else I will request admin rights for myself and yourself. Qapla' Jon 21:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks pretty good! Here's how I would word it:

=loHwI'DIbmeyvaD tlhobmeH (requests for administrator rights)= ==Jon== *loHwI' jImoj vIneH (I want to become an adminstrator.) *loHwI' Xmoj vIneH (I want X to become an administrator.) *jIlaj (I accept.) ===Qochbe' (agree)=== ===Qoch (agree)=== ===Sovbe' (don't know)=== ===wuq (decision)===
 * The very top line is a more or less literal translation:

loH = administer; wI' = agential suffix; DIb = privilege; mey = approx., plural inanimate; vaD = approx., accusative marker tlhob = request; meH = purpose marker
 * Which yields the meaning: "For the request of administrator rights". But, other than that, it looks fine.
 * BTW, I really think that the Klingon Guide belongs in an Appendix, as that's where most didactic sections of a dictionary are placed.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 21:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

'aprIqanS Hol
Dear MInDu'Donbe', could you please help me? What am I doing wrong here: http://tlh.wiktionary.org/wiki/chen%27ay%27:-af- ? All new Afrikaans lemmas just be grouped together in the category 'aprIqanS Hol, but they don't :((( For instance: Afrikaans, Italiaans, Indonesies. Thanx --Manie 22:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just see, they working now :))) By the way, do you perhaps know the Klingon translations for "singular" and "plural"? --Manie 22:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, okay, good. Was it that you were having trouble getting the entries to appear in the appropriate categories? If so, remember that a standard entry should look like this:

(The language code and header. In this case, Afrikaans.) (Pronunciation header.) * : /…/ (Pronunciation of lemma.) (Part of speech header. Here, noun.) (Pagename template.) ( : …) (Plural form, if any.)
 * 1) … (Translation of lemma into Klingon.)
 * For each language, the inclusion of its unique language code, placed at the beginning of the entry in question thus: (note the hyphens surrounding the code), automatically places the title of the entry in that language's category index. So, if the name of the current page is "hand", for example, and that page includes a language entry template, the page's title will appear in that language's index.
 * As for the Klingon words for singular and plural, the singular could be expressed wa'togh (lit., one count) and the plural mochtogh (lit., superior count). The basic abbreviation for plural is m. and is produced with the template .—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 22:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Lovely, thanx!!!! --Manie 23:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * belwI'! (My pleasure!)—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 23:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Nomination
I created a request page, and have nominated you. You have to indicate your acceptance or else decline. I'm not sure about namespaces, perhaps the page should be wIqImu'ghom:loHwI'pu'? You are probably right about the Klingon Guide, I'll get round to moving it sometime. I'd like to translate all the standard wiki text into thlIngan, but no idea where it's all held. Any ideas? Jon 10:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I found the standard text - which lists lots of locked pages. Oh um. Jon 11:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm actually not sure how one changes system namespaces. Awhile back, I did the front page by doing a redirect from the default “Main Page”, but the appearance of “Redirected from XXXXX ” gets a bit annoying pretty soon. BTW, have you noticed that the links to various special pages lead one to pages which each has its own Klingon name? E.g., Special → le'; Template → chen'ay', etc. If only we knew how to change the default text (i.e., the navigation box, the toolbox box, the “my” user links at the top of each page when one is logged in, etc.)! Oh well… Anyways, keep up the great work!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 00:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

days of the week
Dear MInDu'Donbe',

how are the following words declined?

Monday: jaj wejDIch, plural: jajmey wejDIch? jaj wejDIchmey? Tuesday: jaj loSDIch Wednesday: jaj vaghDIch Thursday: jaj javDIch Friday: jaj SochDIch Saturday: Hov jaj, plural: Hovmey jaj, Hov jajmey? Sunday: maS jaj, plural: maSmey jaj, maS jajmey?

Any idea how "Southern" and "Nortehern" could be translated? :))) Thanx in advance --Manie 22:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * To tell you the truth, I don't know if the Klingons have given much thought as to actual days of the week. There are, however, stardates, which use an entirely different system. My only guess would be to name the the way the Portuguese- and Icelandic-speaking peoples do it: by the number of the day in the usual order of the week: Sunday being first, etc. But I noticed you have maS jaj for Sunday; this would translate as "moon day" pro "sun day". No undue offence to Muslims, but I think it only makes sense to start the week with the "sun" day and not the "moon" day, as is the Islamic trend, according to their belief that Allah created death before he created life… Anyways, I would give the plural inflection to the "day", since that's what we're counting.
 * À propos specific words for "south" and "north", I am a bit surprised Okrand didn't include these in TKD. There are several words which are elusive to the Terran assessment of Klingon vocabulary. In these cases, such as with "sun", one must either: a) wait for the word(s) to be officially coined (something I am too impatient to do) or b) coin the word(s) oneself, whether for the nonce or for good, as I did with pemHov (=day star). Cardinal points of the compass, on the other hand, are a bit trickier to formulate. In TKD, one will find that even though there is no specific word for "top", the concept itself can be sufficiently expressed with "Dung", which means "the area above". Likewise, I would imagine that "north" could be expressed with "'etyoS" (fore district) and "south" with "'o'yoS" (aft district). Alternately, "'etmIch" (fore zone) and "'o'mIch" (aft zone) could probably be used with equal clarity. Notwithstanding, these are only “guesstimates”, at best. So, I don't know whether or not Okrand would approve of them. And, really, this is his language, so we should honour his decisions as they come. Cheers.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 23:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So what are we supposed to do now? The reason why I asked for Northern and Southern is because of "azb" and "azj". Using your new coined words: azj: Northern Azerbaijani = 'etyoS 'aSerbayjan Hol? azb: Southern Azerbaijani = 'o'yoS 'aSerbayjan Hol?


 * As far as the days are concerned, I got them wrong. According to https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9101&L=gaelic-l&D=0&F=P&P=6835&F= (it says there surmised)


 * Monday: maS jaj
 * Tuesday: jaj wejDIch
 * Wednesday: jaj loSDIch
 * Thursday: jaj vaghDIch
 * Friday: jaj javDIch
 * Saturday: jaj SochDIch
 * Sunday: Hov jaj


 * I see that you are not happy with those translations. I also know that Klingon is Okrand's language, of course. But the Klingon wiktionary needs the day and month names! Could you coin day names? Once new names are officially given out, one can always still change them. Hope I am not being a nuisance to you people! Thanx --Manie 19:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Many languages (Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.) simply use numbers for names of months and days of the week, instead of direct translations of the traditional Western names, which would yield horrendous equivalents. Therefore, I see no (big) problem with naming the months and days in the same numerical fashion. On a whim, however, one could attempt to “translate” the days of the week in the following fashion (starting with Sunday): Hovjaj (=star day), maSjaj (=moon day), veSjaj (=war day), joHjaj (=lord day), 'otlhjaj (=photon day), bangjaj (=love day), and Satlhjaj (=agriculture day). A bit of a stretch, I know. Notice also that I didn't include spaces between the elements of the daynames; e.g., Hovjaj. It takes up less room and is less likely to cause ambiguity. Personally, if the number system is adopted, I feel the names would best be expressed like "oneday" = wa'jaj, "twoday" = cha'jaj, etc. Tolkien chose this a similar method for creating daynames in his Middle Earth languages. Whaddaya think? Monthnames could be formed similarly: wa'jar, etc. After all, this universe is huge, so Western culture isn't likely to be a very determining factor in interplanetary chrononymy, IMNSHO!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 22:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I would also opt for wa'jaj, cha'jaj,...Great!!!
 * Another question: the word thlingan: is it pronounced or ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klingon_language has, which I don't understand, because -"ngan" is a suffix without a  and should not attracted the stress.
 * And what about "'etyoS 'aSerbayjan Hol" and "'o'yoS 'aSerbayjan Hol"? Are these forms correct?
 * First of all the correct spelling is tlhIngan and not thlIngan: please remember that! :-) The Zulu Tswana language itself uses the trigraph [tlh] for the same sound [tɬ]. Americanist transcriptions favour the symbol [ƛ̣]. At any rate, just keep in mind that we're dealing with an affricate which consists of [t] + [ɬ].
 * Okrand gives the pronunciation (in Klingon) as /ˈtɬɪ.ŋan/ (i.e., with stress on the penult). The English pronunciation has, to my awareness, always been /ˈkliŋ.ɑn/. The "a" in the autonym (“tlhIng a n”) is just /a/ and in English (“Kling o n”) is /ɑ/ because it represents an "o"; at least, that is, in General American pronunciation.
 * The suffix "-ngan" is an ethnic identifier. But as such, we would have to say that Klingons are, literally, “inhabitants of tlhI”. Isn't it funny how words that English has borrowed from other languages can differ immensely from their original forms?
 * For purposes of sorting (among others), I think it would be best to put “'aSerbayjan” first, with the specific regional labels in parentheses:

should produce〈'aSerbayjan ('etyoS)〉 and 〈'aSerbayjan ('o'yoS)〉 just as with the Irish and Scots Gaelic〈〉and〈〉.
 * P.S.—Please be careful with the templates! I've worked very hard and it would be way too much trouble to have to change everything in one fell swoop if a new system were proposed! So, do remember that! I don't mean to sound overly bossy, but I really know the ropes around here so just stick with the way I've been doing things, okay? I appreciate it! And thank you for the questions, let's keep this mu'ghom growing!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 22:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanx!!! I've corrected it now: see http://af.wiktionary.org/wiki/tlhIngan and http://af.wiktionary.org/wiki/tlhIngan_Hol. MInDuI. I'll try my best to adhere to your rules, of course! Greetings --Manie 16:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

language templates
Dear MInDu'Dinbe', we need the following (Amharic),  (Bashkir),  (Bosnian),  (Maldivian),  (Gujarati),  (Interlingua),  (Ossetic),  (Chinese, traditional),  (Chinese, simplified),  (Madagascan),  (Moldovan),  (Occitan), kn: ವಿಕ್ಷನರ (Wikšanarī) (Kannarese),  (Kashubian),  [Kurdish (Kirmanji)],  (Telugu).

Suggestions: Amharic: 'amar Hol? (አማርኛ amār-iññā [not āmar-iññā!]) Bashkir: baSqort Hol (башҡорт теле bašqort tele) Bosnian: boSna' Hol (bosanski jezik) Maldivian: DIvehI' Hol (ދިވެހި dhivehi) Gujarati: ghujratI' Hol (ગુજરાતી guj(a)rātī) Interlingua: 'InterlIngghua' Hol Interlingue: 'InterlIngghue' Hol Ossetian: 'Iron Hol (ирон ӕвзаг iron ævzag) traditional Chinese: lurDech jongghwo' simplified Chinese: ??? Madagascan: malaghaS Hol (fiteny malagasy; pronounced [mɐlɐˈgɐs]) Moldovan: molDova' Hol (limba moldovenească, лимба молдовеняскэ) Occitan: 'utSItang Hol (occitan; pronounced [uʦiˈta]) Kannarese: qannaDa' Hol (ಕನ್ನಡ kannaḍa) Kashubian: qaSub Hol (kaszëbsczi jãzëk) Kurmanji: qurmanjI' Hol (Kurmancî) Telugu: telughu' Hol (తెలుగు telugu) Xhosa: QoSa' Hol (isiXhosa) Venda: venDa' Hol (Chivenda) Tsonga: tSonggha' Hol (Xitsonga) Tswana: tSwana' Hol (Setswana) Southern Sotho: 'o'yoS Soto' Hol (Sesotho) Northern Sotho: 'etyoS Soto' Hol (Sesotho sa Leboa) Herero: Herero' Hol (Otjiherero) Chechen: NoHch Hol (нохчийн мотт noxçiyn mott) Ingush: ghalghay Hol (гІалгІайн мотт ghalghãy mott) Kwanyma: qwanyama' Hol (Oshikwanyama) Armenian: Hay Hol (հայերեն hay-eren) Aragonese: 'araghon Hol (aragonés) Georgian: qart Hol (ქართული kart-uli) Low German: bIngDIch Hol (Plattdüütsch, Nedderdüütsch, Neddersassisch) Katharevousa: qatarevusa' Hol (καθαρεύουσα katharevusa; pronounced [kaθaˈre̞vusa]) Dhimotiki: DImotIqI' Hol (δημοτική dhimotiki; pronounced [ðimɔtiˈkʲi])

What do you say? --Manie 18:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, Manie! You've really caught on the the patterns I've been using! That's awesome! In fact, what you have here is very similar to what I would have chosen (had I taken the time…)! Here is how I would like it to be, including the (few) differences (marked with arrows):

Amharic = 'amar Hol Aragonese = 'araghon Hol Armenian = Hay Hol [This one is probably the easiest of them all! “Hay”: simple!] Bashkir = baSqort Hol Bosnian = boSna' Hol ➤ Chechen = noHchI' Hol ➤ Chinese, traditional = jongghwo' (naQ) Hol [❍ “naQ” = complete; i.e., complete and original form characters] ➤ Chinese, simplified = jongghwo' (nap) Hol [❍ “nap” = simple; i.e., simple form characters] ➤ Georgian = qartvelI' Hol [❍ after “ქართველი” (ḳartveli), meaning Georgia] ➤ Gujarati = ghujaratI' Hol [❍ The inherent "a" is still audible in the〈જ〉, however short.] Herero = Herero' Hol Ingush = ghalghay Hol Interlingua = 'InterlIngghua' Hol Interlingue = 'InterlIngghue' Hol Kannada = qannaDa' Hol ➤ Kashubian = qaSeb Hol [❍ Slavic language names are essentially identical to their autonymous counterparts sans the "-ski" suffix] ➤ Kurdish, Kurmanji = qurD (qurmanjI') Hol [❍ Dialect names should be formed by the autonym followed by the region/dialect name in parentheses.] Kwanyma = qwanyama' Hol Malagasy = malaghaS Hol Maldivian = DIvehI' Hol Moldavian = molDova' Hol Occitan = 'utSItang Hol Ossetian = 'Iron Hol [❍ Remember that “Iron” is only one of two dialects of Ossetian, the other being “Digor”. However, Iron is by far the more widely spoken.] ➤ Sotho, Northern: Soto' ('etyoS) Hol ➤ Sotho, Southern: Soto' ('o'yoS) Hol Telugu = telughu' Hol Tsonga = tSonggha' Hol Tswana = tSwana' Hol Venda = venDa' Hol ➤ Xhosa = tlhoSa' Hol [❍〈xh〉is most closely represented with〈tlh〉(/tɬ/).]
 * Now, Manie, if you wish to undertake the responsibility of creating these language templates, you must be extremely careful! Here is the correct scheme:
 * For language templates which occur under translations of Klingon vocables and do not require transliteration or gender specification, copy the template as a model and substitute the data accordingly.
 * For language templates which occur under translations of Klingon vocables and do require transliteration and/or gender specification, copy the template as a model and substitute the data accordingly.
 * For language templates which occur as headers in a given entry copy the template as a model and substitute the data accordingly.
 * If this is too much for you, don't worry: I can do it. But if you do feel up to it, just remember, don't change anything other than the data to substitute! O.K.? Just for clarity, here's what I mean by substituting data: when copying template data (from within the edit tab), paste the info into the new edit window for the new template and where you see, for example, en substitute it with ia, etc. And where you see DIvI' substitute it with 'InterlIngghua', etc. Other than that, don't change anything else! It's a very complicated process and things can get screwed up if you let them, but don't let them! :-) O.K.? Additionally, there are some languages for which interwiki links don't yet work, that is, there are several languages which do not yet have their own Wiktionary. In these cases, the data which runs from … to should be omitted. For instance, when I created the template for the Sranan language, I deleted the interwiki link feature, since there isn't yet a Wiktionary in Sranan. It's not that big of a deal, it just means that you'd see this:


 * Again, if this is too much for you, I'll take care of it. Thank you for your undying interest in this remarkable project!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 00:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ups, just saw your answer now! Thanx. I'll try doing them today. Hope my emendations to the af and de-templates are ok though! Greetings --Manie 01:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * For the last three languages, they should be formed:

Dhimotiki = DImotIqI' Hol Katharevousa = qatarevusa' Hol ➤Low German = platDIch Hol [❍ I think this is how it is most commonly referred to, right? Isn't it usually called “Plattdüütsch” by native speakers? Anyway, I'm sure it'd be understood what is meant by “platDIch”…]—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 01:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, Manie, for languages which have genders and/or possibilities of transliteration, templates should include interwiki links only for odd numbered variables. Do you understand? Because, for the even numbered variables, that information doesn't need to be linked to, as it is merely gender info and transliterations, which would most likely not have articles of corresponding names in the target Wiktionary. Thus, for an entry such as, only "Sonne" should feature a link to the German Wiktionary and not  , since that is merely the abbreviation for the female gender. Like I said, be extremely careful with the templates, especially those that include syntax such as if# , etc. O.K.? T.i.A.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 01:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But now "Eigenschaftswort" in Delmu' is NOT blue any more!!!! No link to it! This can't be a solution! In tlhIngan Hol Catalan "klingonès" is not interlinked.
 * ➤ Georgian = qartvelI' Hol [❍ after “ქართველი” (ḳartveli), meaning Georgia]: I know that "ḳartveli" means Georgia, but the language names is derived from a shortened form:
 * “საქართველო,” (Sakartveli), Georgian “ქართული” (kartuli), just as:
 * Germany: “გერმანია” (Germania), German “გერმანული” (germanuli)
 * England: “ინგლისი” (Anglasa), English “ინგლისური” (anglasuli)
 * France: “საფრანგეთი” (Saphrangeti), French “ფრანგული” (phranguli)
 * Greece: “საბერძნეთი” (Saberjneti), Greek “ბერძნული” (berjnuli)
 * Turkey: “თურქეთი” (Turkheti), Turkish “თურქული” (turkhuli)
 * Still want "qartvelI' Hol"?


 * Toki Pona: toqIpona' Hol (Toki Pona )? --Manie 10:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Often, a language name in Klingon will be derived from the name of the country in which it mostly spoken followed by "Hol"; whence, pghangS Hol = “France language”; ruS Hol = Russia (older name) language; bIngpuHmey Hol = “nether-lands” language, etc. Incidentally, the name საქართველო (saḳartvelo) features the common "sa-" nominaliser prefix, which, when dropped and appended with "language", would yield (in Klingon) qartvelo' Hol, which I prefer, if not because "qart" seems too short.
 * “toqIpona'” Hol is fine.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 17:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

gender specific templates
But now "Eigenschaftswort" in Delmu' is NOT blue any more!!!! No link to it! This can't be a solution! In tlhIngan Hol Catalan "klingonès" is not interlinked. :((( --Manie 19:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Fixed it! In lieu of gender specification and/or transliteration one simply adds a vertical bar with nothing in it:


 * Do you see? Since no gender was specified for the even numbered field it must be left blank and a new bar added.

*
 * * = language template; 1 = first translation; 2 = gender/transliteration; 3 = second translation, etc.
 * I know, it's kinda weird looking, but it works. Alternatively, you could supply the gender for "klingón", which I guess would be masculine…? Anyways, just remember to leave an extra bar blank when no gender/transliteration is available. This is not as pointless as it may seem since verbs don't have genders, at least, not in most languages.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 20:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanx!!! Another thing: why do you actually subdivide the IPA notation into syllables? --Manie 23:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I do so to indicate proper articulatory syllabic division. You may have noticed that „Stimmsilbentrennung“ differs from „Schriftsilbentrennung“. For example: the word “baker” is hyphenated bak•er but pronounced /ˈbei.kɝ/ (i.e., ba•ker). This isn't an inconsistency with English or languages in general, it's just that they are governed by different principles, speech and writing. In writing, as you already know, it's called hyphenation, which involves dividing the various elements (or lexemes) of words in order to reveal lexical segmentation, as well as to allow words to be divided properly when reading or reciting written matter. The reason it differs in speech is due to many factors. Oftentimes a letter will be pronounced in two or more different ways, depending on its position in a given word. For instance, the word “balloon” is generally pronounced /bə.ˈlun/. The [l] here being a "clear l". Were it pronounced with the [l] as the coda (i.e., at the end) of the first syllable, it would most likely be pronounced /bəɫ.ˈʔun/. The [l] there being a "dark l". Also, note the glottal stop which would be required were the word divided that way; German features this, as I am sure you most certainly know. Danish has something similar which they call stød (de: Stoß, en: thrust). At any rate, by using syllabic suprasegmentals, phonetic ambiguity is greatly reduced.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 23:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is all true (with the exception that the glottal stop is only used in Northern German), but since when does one indicate the syllabic division in IPA notation (which should be placed between square brackets; phonemic transcription is placed between slashes)? --Manie 08:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Manie, many people use this method (using periods to separate syllables), not just myself. And I prefer using slashes for phonetic transcriptions rather than brackets because it looks nicer, I originally found phonetic transcriptions written that way, and it is analogous to metric division in poetry (There was an old man with a beard / Who said “It is just as I feared! / Two owls and a hen, / Four larks and a wren / Have all built their nests in my beard!”). I find using brackets for phonetic transcriptions quite cumbrous; it also looks too parenthetical (i.e., as though it were being presented subordinately). But rest assured: I am not the only one who forms phonetic transcriptions this way.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 13:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok sir! :)) --Manie 11:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

loHwI'pu' ²
Qapla'

I submitted a second request to meta today, and it has been approved. You should notice some new buttons when editing:
 * protect - we can protect a page so that only other admins can edit it, this is useful if there's an edit war, or for a repeatedly vandalised page.
 * delete - allows a page to be deleted, for example for typos or vandalism. The page isn't actually deleted, admins can still view it, non-admins can't.

If you ever check Recent changes you will see a block option. This allows one to block a vandal for some period of time.

And hopefully some of the pages we couldn't change before we will now have access to. Jon 21:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Looking at this page (lo'wI' ja'chuq:MInDu'Donbe' (section)) as I am now editing it, I don't notice any new buttons. Hmm. Perhaps it only works on articles and not user pages. Anyways, this is good news (provided it works for ME! ;-) ). Thanks and keep up the great work!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 22:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Update: I see 'em now! Thanks!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 23:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

System messages
Yes, they are in the Special pages/System messages. I just deleted that annoying site notice! Qapla'! I intend keeping to the same text as used in the Klingon Encyclopedia. There are some glitches. choH (edit) gets converted to lowercase and appears as choh on the tab at the top, maybe there's a preference somewhere? Also I changed the text for the main page on the left hand navigation bar to ghItlh'a', which means that the main page is now an article with that name (it should really be a page called wIqImu'ghom:ghItlh'a').

Have fun. Jon 21:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks!
 * I'm actually a member of the Klingon Encyclopedia as well. So far, I haven't done much there: they seem to be doing fine on their own. Plus, I've got this project to take care of.
 * Yes, I have noticed certain casechanging features of wikis in general. My username here, for example, was registered as mInDu'Donbe', but instead it converted the m to M. Some wiktionaries would automatically capitalise entry names; which, I don't like doing but for proper names and otherwise normally capitalised lexemes. But I wonder why the choH becomes choh? That's peculiar and is definitely worth looking into; especially since Klingon orthography uses capitals as individual letters, regardless of the position in a word.
 * What about the MediaWiki:XXXX pages? I saw those a little earlier. Some of them link to other pages, e.g., when searching MediaWiki:Go one is redirected to chen'ay':go. Why is that? Incidentally, when you changed the messages, did you do it from that humongous page or is there another way? I ask this because I don't exactly have the world's fastest processor—if you catch my drift—and there are alot of messages that need to be localised (i.e., nativised or translated).—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 22:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I used the humungous page, which link to the MediaWiki:XXXX pages. Otherwise I don't see how you would work out the right page to create. Even so its going to be by trial and error. I found the text for the "go" button under MediaWiki:Searcharticle, and translated it as an imperative, i.e. we're telling the system to get what we want. What do you think? Jon 10:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * One of the system message is moonbook.css. I copied over the one from the Klingon Encyclopedia, and it has sorted out the tab headings (choH, vIH, etc). You might need to refresh the page to see the changes. Also it uses a different font so that I and l are easier to distinguish. Jon 13:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good news! I actually saved that “humongous” page as a text file and from there I just copy the text and paste it into the URL box and don't have to go to that “humongous” page every time!
 * À propos the Go button. My original idea was to use 'ang (show). Other Wikis do the same thing: Go can imply just “go”, but Show or Article implies that the text for which you searched is actually the title of the article and so you want the server to Show the article or otherwise fetch the Article. It doesn't really matter; I just thought that 'ang would be more straightforward.
 * Yeah, that case system is quite a case! I tried several methods to quasi-override it. I tried other writing systems (Cyrillic, Full-width, etc.) but it always resolved the letters to lowercase! AAAAHHHRGH! Indeed, I too hope that there is some system preference that we can toggle in order to change (once and for all) the case case (issue, affair, &c.)! Keep up the great work.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 21:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

chen'ay':azb
You took away the "az" in chen'ay':azb. Can we put it back again? --Manie 12:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * We could, but the reason I took it out is that at the Azeri Wiktionary all the articles in Azeri are in Latin/Roman script; so, clicking on a link in Arabic script directing one's browser to the Azeri Wiktionary article would more than likely bring one to a page which says that "there is no page with this exact title" (in Azeri, of course). Therefore, I don't see the need to have links to articles that don't exist. But thanks for asking.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 21:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see. Greetings --Manie 23:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

mIn
Dear MInDu'Donbe', in mIn we would need new language names :))) Do you want me to make suggestions, or are you going to take care of this? Regards --Manie 23:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * How about the following?


 * dsb = DelnyoSerb
 * goh = Doych tIQ jen
 * got = ghut
 * hsb = HornyoSerb
 * ngo = ngonI'
 * nb = No [❍ I don't think we really need to set up a separate template for Bokmål, but, if you insist, norghe (paqQIch) should do the trick.]
 * non = norront or norrent [❍ There's no real equivalent of /ø/ in Klingon.]
 * odt = bIngpuHmey tIQ
 * ofs = prIyS tIQ
 * osx = Doych tIQ bIng
 * Additionally, we should probably see if there are any other commonly used language codes for which we have not yet devised names.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 02:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Gesagt, getan.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 19:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Super, scheinst ja sehr gute deutschkenntnisse zu haben!!! Es gibt ein bokmål wikipedia und ein neunorwegisches. "Auge" ist "øye" auf bokmål und "auga" oder "auge" auf neunorwegisch.
 * Für ngoni würde ich ngghonI' nehmen, da es [ˈŋgoːni] ausgesprochen wird.


 * Wir haben jedoch mit "arc" ein problem: wikipedia verwendet ARC undefined für syrisch (syro-aramäisch), was aber falsch ist!!! ARC undefined ist eigentlich "reichsaramäisch" (Imperial Aramaic) und 🇸🇾 wäre "syrisch". "Auge" ist auf reichsaramäisch  עין (ʿēn) und auf syrisch  ܥܝܢܐ (klassisch: ʿaynā; westsyrisch liturgisch: ʿaynō).
 * "Aramäisch" ist auf reichsaramäisch: ארמי (aramāy; du verwendest das hebräische aramit!) und syrisch auf syrisch: ܣܘܪܝܐܝܐ (klassisch: sūryāyā; westsyrische liturgie: sūryōyō).


 * Was anders: was mache ich in mIn falsch bei bokmål) Wieso ist "auge" nicht rot? :((( lg --Manie 17:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ja, es gibt zwei Wikipedias für die norwegisches Mundarten, dennoch es gibt keine Wikipedia mit den Sprachkode nb, sondern die no-Wikipedia ist die Bokmålwikipedia. Nach meiner Meinung, wenn das Stichwort ist dasselbe auf sowohl Bokmål als Neunorwegisch, können wir nur der Kode no für beide verwenden. Wohingehen sie (die Stichwörter) sind anders, können wir die Kodes nb und nn verwenden, bzw.
 * z.B.,

bror („Bruder“ auf nb und nn)
 * aber…

søster („Schwester“ auf nb) („Schwester“ auf nn)
 * Zwar ist die Rechtschreibung ngghonI' besser! Ich hatte der Digraph "ng" zu bezeichnen als /ŋ/ und nicht /ŋɡ/ mißverstehte. Mag du es verändern!
 * Jedoch beim Aramäisches Wikipedia verwendet man die Syrischeschrift. Außerdem, sind die Zwischenwikilinks im Syrische- und nicht Hebräischeschrift geschrieben. Jedenfalls, kannst du 'aramIt zu 'aramay verändern.
 * Zuletzt, setztest du noch ein Strich zwischen auga und auge?


 * anstatt eben


 * Keine Sorgen! Es hat keine Eile!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 00:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Super!!! Danke. Aber das problem syrisch ist damit jedoch nicht gelöst :((( Wikipedia ist kein dogma!!! Es ist schlichtweg falsch, für syrisch ARC undefined zu verwenden (rührt vielleicht von fundamentalisten, die es toll finden, den ausdruck "aramäisch, die sprache Jesu" zu verwenden.). Lustig ist zum beispiel auch, dass das moldauische wikipedia zyrillisch verwendet (obwohl moldauisch heute offiziell lateinisch geschrieben (mit ausnahme der wenigen moldauer der Dnjesterrepublik) und tatarisch lateinisch geschrieben wird, offiziell jedoch zyrillisch (Putin verbot ja die einführung des lateinischen alphabetes für das tatarische). Lg --Manie 11:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Nana? Bist du ein Judenfeind, dann? Auch ist Wikipedia überparteilich! Syrisch wird beim Sprachencode 🇸🇾 dargestellt. Aramäisch beim ARC undefined . Beim Syrisches Alphabet ist der Sprachekode verwendet. Außerdem, die aramäische Wiki verwendet die aramäische Schrift. Und ich denke nicht, daß sie sind dogma damit.
 * „Lustig?“ Ich weiß wo der Hase lang läuft! Du willst mich wohl auf den Arm nehmen, nicht wahr? Ich habe Rumänisch studiert und ich ziehe es vor, Moldauisch auf Zyrillisch zu schreiben. Es ist praktisch der einzige Unterschied zwischen Rumänisch und Moldauisch. Ebenso wird Tatarisch meistens in die lateinische Schrift geschrieben. Ausserdem ist das Tatarisch Wikiwörterbuch in die lateinische Schrift geschrieben, also sollten unsere Zwischenwikilinks auch sein. Hierin hat Putin keine Wahlstimme! Klaro?
 * Übrigens, warum schreibst du nicht deine Hauptwörter mit Anfangsbuchstaben? Auch, für was ist „lg“ eine Abkürzung? (viell., „lang“?)
 * P.S.—Nur Mut, Manie! Sei du nicht verbittert!—

MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 17:18, 26 jar wej 2007 (UTC)
 * Wieso judenfeind???? Was habe ich über juden geschrieben??? Die syrische ("aramäische) wiki verwendet nicht das aramäische alphabet, sondern das syrische! Das hier ist syrisch (estrangelo, serto,...):, und nicht aramäisch! Aber egal, soll nicht meine sorge sein. I don't want to start an arguement here! It's not my problem!! .)) Verstehe nur nicht, wie du jetzt auf juden gekommen bist. "Fundamentalisten" bezog sich hier eher auf christen :))


 * Auf den arm nehmen???? May I quote "Moldovan may be written in either the Latin alphabet (currently official in the Republic of Moldova) or in the Cyrillic alphabet (official in the unrecognized state of Transnistria and formerly in the Moldavian SSR until 1989)." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language). Falls du meinst, dass man jetzt moldauisch in lateinisch schreiben muss, so missverstehst du mich gründlich. Das meinte ich nicht.


 * Ich schreibe alles klein, weil dies viele tun, wen sie e-briefe und dergleichen in deutsch schreiben.


 * Ich sehe, dass du arabische und hebräische lexeme mit vokalzeichen versehen haben willst (nur beim syrischen willst du es anscheinend nicht). Wenn dem so ist, so muss man bei wIqImu'ghom das arabische mit harakat versehen. Lg = liebe grüße :)) --Manie 20:33, 26 jar wej 2007 (UTC)
 * [1] Ich beschuldigte du nicht vom Judenhaß. Ich dachte, daß du auf die Tatsache sich bezogen, daß Jesus Aramäisch sprach. Jesus war ein Jude (spez., ein messianischer Jude). Er war nicht ein Christ, sondern Christ selbst! Aramäische Unicode Buchstaben sind im gleichen Block wie Syrisch, da sie einer imselben sind (so weit). Es gibt drei syrisches Schriften, nämlich Estrangelo, Nestorianisch und Jakobitisch. Estrangelo Buchstaben werden im 0700-0740 Unikode-Block gefunden, dem die syrische Schrift zugewiesen wird. Zu meinem Bewußtsein ist die ursprüngliche aramäische Schrift nicht noch unikodierte gewesen. Habst du die Schrift erblickt? Er trägt eine auffallende Ähnlichkeit zu die phönizischen Schrift! Auf jeden Fall wird die alte aramäische Schrift nicht mehr benutzt, da er in die syrisches Schrift umwandelte (dank der arabischer Schrift).
 * Natürlich sprach Jesus aramäisch, und diese tatsache hat nichts mit antisemitismus zu tun!! [❍: Nicht für sich, wahr.] Inwieweit er Christ selbst war, ist eine sache des glaubens. [❍: „Christ“ oder „Christus“?] Das obliegt jedem selber, daran zu glauben oder nicht. Die aramäische wiki nen{n}t sich jedenfalls "aramäisch", ist aber in syrischer sprache. [❍: Syrisch ist Aramäisch; spez., östliches Aramäisch.] Slight difference! :)) Sie ist nicht nur syrisch, sondern im speziellen westsyrisch, das erkennst du an den bezeichnungen für die ländernamen, aber genug dazu.... [❍: Dafür, die Ethnonyme.]
 * [2] Aha! Aber die deutsche Wikipedia nicht sogar erwähnt die lateinische Schrift im Artikel auf Moldauisches! Dann, dich hatte nur die englische Version gelesen, nicht wahr? Ungeachtet, ich bevorzuge die zyrillische Schrift für Moldauischen.
 * [3] Ich schreibe in Versalien, da es korrekter ist.
 * Was meinst du damit? [❍: Versalien (oder Versalbuchstaben) sind große Anfangsbuchstaben; auf Englisch, „initial cap(ital)s“. Ich habe nur die (modernen) deutschen Gegenstandswörter groß geschriebenen gesehen.]
 * [4] Ich habe absolut keinen Einwand zum Verwenden des Zeigens mit Syrisch. Wenn du die diakritisches Zeichen weißt, jedenfalls, verwend du sie! Es gerade geschieht so, daß mein „Computer“ (z.Z.) nicht die Übertragung der Unterstützung für die syrisches Schrift hat, folglich mein Mangel an Beiträgen in dieser Sprache. Aber, wie ich sagte, wenn du das Zeigen weißt, schließen du es ein!
 * Muss gucken und ausprobieren. So viel ich weiß, akzeptiert wiki nur die westsyrischen diakritischen zeichen, nicht aber die opstsyrischen!!! I'll have a look. [❍: Topp!]
 * [5] Danke für deine Geduld und Verständnis! lg :)))—
 * Und viceversa :))) --Manie 07:46, 27 jar wej 2007 (UTC)—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 23:04, 26 jar wej 2007 (UTC)

mughmey
The lowercase /uppercase business for the tabs (choH, Qan, etc) was sorted by changing monobook.css in the system messages.

You changed the translation of my watchlist from bejtetlhwIj to  bejtetlhwI' ? My reading of TKD indicates that -wIj means my unless the noun being possessed (here bejtetlh) is capable of language, in which case -wI' is used. The examples given are juHwIj (my house) and joHwI' (my lord). So I think the translation with -wIj is correct.

Also I'm not sure about maSghach. There's no canon for preference. In some cases the noun is the same as the verb, for example Sov is know and knowledge (TKD and TKD appendix). This site tells us to avoid -ghach. I was thinking of using DuH (option) or wIv (choice).

I do like jImej (I leave) for log out.

Jon 09:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * [1] monobook.css. I see.
 * [2] On second thought, -wIj probably is better. I was confusing the pronominal title with the one doing the owning. My bad. You may change them.
 * [3] There is no canon for “preference”, that's true. The reason I use the nominaliser suffix -ghach is for clarity: it implies that the word is giving name to something rather than stating that something is happening. Whence "maSghach", which I would translate as "prefer" + "-ence" (or "-ing", "-ness", "-ment", "-cy", "-tion", "-hood", etc.); ergo, the actual act of preferring; by extension, one's druthers. Additionally, I don't think that all verbs can be used as nouns and to use maS as a noun may have an overtone of a subjunctive. I don't know. Anyways, that's my “preference”.
 * [4] Thank you. I figured the more straightforward (or forthright, for Klingons), the better. There wasn't sufficient information in TKD to indicate "logging in" or "signing in" or "clocking in". So, I went with what one naturally intends to do when logging out: namely, "leave". Cheers.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 18:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We can leave preference as maSghach for now. I'm just concerned that we get the grammar right.
 * I was thinking of using pImmey (derived from pIm = be different) for diff (short for differences)? Jon 16:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't laugh at this just yet, but how about SeHlawwIj? Literally, “my control panel”. That's the closest thing I can think of that would give a clear-cut meaning to the settings one prefers. Just like with a typical desktop control panel, one can set various parameters (e.g., appearance, interface features, time zone, etc.) to one's needs and/or liking. Whaddaya think?—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 22:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's left field, but there's no danger of a grammatical blooper as might be the case with maSmeywIj or maSghachwIj. If you're feeling bold, go for it. Jon 07:11, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Bold is my middle name!—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 07:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

jar wa'maH cha'
Is the plural of "jar wa'maH cha'" jarmey wa'maH cha'? Regards --Manie 20:51, 26 jar wej 2007 (UTC) I've got now: http://af.wiktionary.org/wiki/jar_wa%27: with plural "jarmey wa'", locative sg "jarDaq wa'", locative pl "jarmeyDaq wa'" ,..Are they correct? --Manie 22:39, 26 jar wej 2007 (UTC)
 * I would think so, since the noun takes the locative anyway…
 * Oh, BTW, is your username basically the same at all the wikis? Mine is translated into each respective language! Pretty cool, huh?—Not bragging, I just thought it would be more creative and worthwhile.—MInDu&#39;Donbe&#39; 23:15, 26 jar wej 2007 (UTC)

Afrikaner/Afrikaander
Since we've got 'aprIqans Hol for Afrikaans, would 'apIqans be "Afrikaner", or rather 'aprIqan? (and 'aprIqan Hol for the language?). Lg --Manie 07:50, 27 jar wej 2007 (UTC)